Beyond the College Brochure for September 18, 2024

Mary McGrath (00:01.589)
Hello and welcome to the Beyond the College Brochure podcast where we provide you information and guidance about college financials and decisions. My name is Marie McGrath and I'm a current senior at Linwood University and my cohost today is Dr. Gary Stocker who is also the founder of College Viability. Welcome back to the podcast, Gary.

Gary (00:19.442)
Well, very, very good. I understand that it's getting close to the start of basketball season because I saw the full. Lindenwood University women's basketball schedule was released yesterday. You're going to Kansas. You're going to the University of Nebraska. I know last year you were at Minnesota and I think you told me before you've been to Arkansas. To Mizzou before on this kind of schedule. So, hey, you've been so you played some big venues and I'm guessing I'm I'm guessing you sold out every one of them, right?

Mary McGrath (00:31.722)
Yes.

Mary McGrath (00:39.603)
Mizzou, it was my freshman year. Yeah.

Yeah, I think we're about.

Not quite, almost, but I think we're about six weeks, I want to say, out from game day, so it's coming up. All right. Yeah, so to kick us off, what would you say to some of the students and families who might be concerned about the ability to transfer credits when their college is facing financial issues? Because obviously you don't want to have to take a step back in your education and have to redo certain things that you might have already done.

Gary (00:55.156)
Beautiful. I'll be there. I'll be there.

So what kind of questions do you have for me today?

Gary (01:12.917)
Yeah.

Gary (01:17.39)
Yeah, good question. The best bet is to get ahead of it. If you're a student or you're a faculty member or staffer, if you're hearing rumors that the college is having financial trouble, can't pay its bills, can't meet its payroll, can't maintain the buildings, there's leaks in all the dormitories, or there's mold in all the dormitories, that's kind of a leading indicator that the college is in financial trouble. You really want to make your decision sooner rather than later. Here's why. If you get a jump on transferring because you have concerns,

Just if your gut tells you there's concerns, act on that, especially in this day and age. If you can jump early, you can reach out to many colleges and not face a time pressure deciding which one is best for you, for your family, and even for your major. So do that. We're in a market, we need to do that sooner rather than later. And the other part of that is associated with negotiating credit transfers.

Now, my understanding, think this is accurate, most Gen Ed courses transfer English 101, Math 101, Biology 101. But when you get to the upper level, like you're doing right now, the senior level finance and marketing courses, those colleges tend to be a little bit pickier on. But if you're looking at transferring, you can have a negotiating conversation with a college that says, Mary, we're not going to take your marketing 301 class that's not like ours.

and you're still in a position, because I've said before, colleges want you and need you more than you need or want them. You can say, you know what, I've got a college already willing to take my marketing 301 course. If you can't take that, I'll find somebody who will. And I will bet you in many cases, maybe not all, that college person, whoever you're talking to, will run it up the proverbial flagpole, get back to you and say, Mary, tell you what, upon reflection, we'll take that marketing 301 course. If you can, if you can...

give us a deposit check tomorrow, something like that. And that's fair. That's fair if they can give you that. But that's the reason why I would get head start on it. So you have more time. Because again, starting I think this October, we're going to see a rapid increase in the number of colleges that close. So if you have some concerns, get ahead of it, Mary.

Mary McGrath (03:08.427)
Thanks

Mary McGrath (03:24.475)
And do you have a specific college ranking publication that you believe is the best, especially for students and families to utilize?

Gary (03:32.202)
You know, if we had a bird here in the stalker family, I would use college ranking services as the cover for the floor for the bird cage, because Mary, that's about how much value they provide, because they are so subjective. I think, you know, I've teased you before about this. You and I could create our own college ranking service this afternoon and come up with our own criteria. They are so subjective as to not provide value, especially

Mary, if you're looking beyond the top 50, top 100 privates and publics, the Ivies, the Illinois, Ohio States, Michigan's, Texas, USC, those kind of colleges, they're not useful. They don't look at all at the financial health. They look at lot of inputs and I won't go into the details on that, but they just, they don't have value. I'll leave it at that.

Mary McGrath (04:22.867)
And when we're looking at the whole kind of college admissions process, especially from the perspective of a high school student, I feel like a lot of students tend to be pretty concerned about essays and test scores and things like that. But I hear a lot about essays, especially. So do you consider those like kind of a big deal in the whole process?

Gary (04:40.406)
Absolutely not. Let me say that again. Absolutely not. Here's why. Now again, maybe if you're looking at Princeton, if you're looking at Harvard, if you're looking at the University of Illinois, University of Michigan, all those top 50ish, top 100ish colleges. Yeah, they're in a position that what's called sellers. They're going to sell you what they've got. You want to go to the University of Michigan to major in whatever. They're going to say the tuition is $25 ,000 a year. Fees are this. You're going to take these courses. They're selling. You say, yes, I'll buy it.

for really every other college out there, and there are thousands, they're not in that strong position as the Michigan's and Ivy's and all those kinds of folks. They're trying to buy you, and they're trying to buy you with tuition discounts, and they're trying to buy you with customized course offerings or flexibility on the course offerings. And they may want to seem selective by saying, Ms. McGrath, we demand that you submit a...

college essay of why you would go to whatever the university is. If I'm in your shoes and it looks like I'm much older than you, yeah, much older than you. I, in this day and age of a college, insisted on an essay and they weren't top 50, top 100. I would look elsewhere. They're just playing games with the essay. Again, they want and need you as a student more than you as a student need or want them.

Mary McGrath (06:05.149)
And I know we've talked about it before, but maybe for some listeners who are new to the podcast, can you explain to them what tuitionfit .org is?

Gary (06:12.928)
Yeah, tuition fit is part of what's a genre of what I call higher ed data entrepreneurs. And I'm going to put myself in that category. And Mark Salisbury founded tuitionfit .org. That's tuitionfit, one word, dot org. five, six, seven years ago, something like that. And it's kind of a money ball version of the old Oakland days where he now has systems in place, online systems where you can, based on your academic credentials and your family's financial credentials, get

essentially apples to apples comparisons for colleges you're considering. So if you're considering college one and college two, and you get from college one, you've got an offer of total net tuition of $19 ,000. And from college two, total net tuition and fees, $25 ,000. right, based on your academic success, your academic background, and your family finances, and maybe your personal finances, you're now in a position to say, well, I've got an offer from college one for $6 ,000 less.

if I did the math right, five or $6 ,000 less. Can you match that? Now, the interesting part is there are parents who are more than comfortable doing that. But you'll say, Mary, that you had your heart set on Lyndon Wood University and nowhere else. Sometimes it's tough for families to tell the children whom they love desperately to say, Mary, you can't go to Lyndon Wood because we found a $5 ,000 better deal somewhere else. So it doesn't always work. But if you're price sensitive,

And again, I'll point out it is the piece of paper at the end, Mary, of that college education that says, I, Mary McGrath, graduated with my Bachelor of Arts, Bachelor of Science, whatever it is, in finance and math. That's what you're striving for. It doesn't matter that it says, Lindenwood or Maryville University or Beloit University or colleges anywhere in the country. It's just you worked hard for four years, you earned the credits, you've got a piece of paper that says so. That's what matters.

In addition to the effort you put into it, it's the piece of paper that says, graduated that matters, not the college that gives it to you in almost all situations.

Mary McGrath (08:18.809)
And speaking of tuition still, would you say it's common for colleges to possibly mislead students and families with the so -called sticker price of the school?

Gary (08:28.822)
Yeah, in a sense, they're misleading. I guess I'll tell you a story from a college president or a couple that I've talked to. And I think you and I have talked before, colleges have all this price. And it's analogous to you and I buying a car. And the car's price is $25 ,000. And we tell the dealer, we'll give you 24. And the dealer says, works. Colleges do the same thing, but on a larger scale. And an example would be a college whose list price for tuition for one year

is $50 ,000. And the informed student, the informed family knows no way in heck is that college really going to charge you $50 ,000 per year. They're going to give you something in the vicinity of a 50 % discount. So a $50 ,000 list price becomes a $25 ,000 actual price. Are they misleading? I'm hesitant to call that. Are they playing games with the numbers? I don't know. Is it a marketing tactic? Absolutely.

But you want to be aware of that because you don't look at college -less prices because precious, precious few people pay that these days.

Mary McGrath (09:35.621)
And do you have any factors in mind that might influence a college's decision to possibly either increase its tuition or decrease its tuition?

Gary (09:43.35)
Yeah, you don't see decreases very much for obvious reasons, costs of inflation, costs of salaries, all those kinds of things.

Gary (09:51.926)
Typically, it's an increase, but let's go back to that tuition discount model we talked about, Mary. A college may increase its tuition 5%. So it goes from $10 ,000 to $10 ,500. But they may increase the tuition discount to at least cover that increase or more than that. And it goes back to that conversation with college presidents. They have many have shared with me.

that parents have told them they prefer what's called the high price, high tuition price, high discount model. My tuition is $50 ,000 a list. My child, because he or she is so guys darn smart, got a $25 ,000 presidential scholarship. Well, they did. It's a discount. You can call it tiddlywinks if you want, but it is, you're not having to pay 50, you're having to pay half of that. And that's fine.

The challenge in colleges are more than welcome to do that. I have no issue with that. You and your family should have no issue with that because you're getting a better deal. Absolutely. But the caveat to that, Mary, is colleges need that revenue, especially the smaller ones, the less well attended ones. They need a greater portion of that $50 ,000 and half of it. And when they don't get it and they're still discounting your tuition 25%, I'm sorry, 50%.

we're finding that those are one of the leading indicators of colleges that close because they may get you in as a student at that 50 % discount and your family may boast from coast to coast that Mary McGrath is so gosh darn smart that she got a 50 % scholarship to go to play basketball or sing or dance or do computer stuff. Doesn't matter what it is. But in reality, the college, there was a college in Iowa last year, Wesleyan University had actually increased its enrollment.

300 students, something like that, over the last four or five, six years or something. But they had increased their tuition discounts so much just to get students in the door that they ran out of cash to meet payroll. They ran out of cash to keep the lights on and they closed. So there's an example of where you can't, it's a catch -22. Colleges want you as a student, but if they can't charge a price, just like for cars or food or computers or houses or anything else,

Gary (12:07.456)
charge a price that they can make money on, it's not good. Not good at all.

Mary McGrath (12:12.735)
And what would you say is your number one piece of advice for any high school student who is just beginning the college decision process?

Gary (12:23.252)
I created the college viability app for justice purpose so that students and their families compare, not look at, but compare the financial health of private and public colleges. And because I have an operating premise, Mary, right or wrong, that that should be the first thing you look at. You're not gonna look at a beat up, run down car as your first option. You're gonna look at a car that shows good stuff, clean, big.

new tires, low mileage, whatever the case may be. And many colleges are the equivalent of that old rusty car. They don't have the systems and processes in place to be able to provide you with a high quality college education. And they may vary well close. So my first thing is check out the finances. Spend the 30 bucks either for the public college or private college version of the app. It's very easy to use. There's tutorials out there on YouTube.

and decide if Mary McGrath University or Gary Stocker College is enrollment increasing? Are they graduating students? Is their endowment above 50 million? And lots of other things you can look at. And make your first decision for that first college list based on a college's financial health, not the majors, not the location, not the sports teams, not the swimming pools, but on the financial health of those colleges that you want to consider.

Mary McGrath (13:47.761)
And for any students and families listening right now, would you say or how would you say they can know that an information that the college is giving them is correct?

Gary (13:58.55)
Quit asking me such difficult questions. And it's almost certainly correct. It would be very dangerous to be dishonest. I'm sure some do, but I'd hard pressed to name any. I can't name any. But they may be spinning it. They may be putting it, taking it out of context. And the best example that I can give is this is the time of year when hundreds of colleges, not all colleges, by name's trash, but hundreds of colleges are saying, we have our greatest enrollment ever.

And I get so many of these on a Google alert system that I have that I can't even keep up with them. But what I find in some that I look at is they're not comparing apples to apples or comparing apples to oranges. They're saying, hey, our enrollment grew, but it was only women over six feet three who played basketball in Missouri and only live within two hours of St. Louis. I mean, silly, of course, but so heavily qualified that it doesn't really have any value, but it gets them a PR cycle. Let's them say our enrollment grew. So they're not being

Gary (15:01.322)
Again, I don't want to use negative words too much. They're not being dishonest. They're just spinning things. And that's one of the reasons I'm here. That's one of the reasons you and I do this podcast and I do other podcasts and media shows to point out that, hey, colleges can spin things any way they want. But I made myself the self -proclaimed college quality control specialist. They're going to spin it. I'm going to spin it right back and say, hey, hey, you're not looking at right. Folks, be careful about what this college is doing because their enrollment really didn't grow.

It only grew for those highly qualified students that we talked about. So no, they, they, the information's correct. It's just, it's just qualified. So heavily as to not be reliable. And that's why you want sources like me, because I don't, could care less what college you or anybody else goes to. But my role is to be that kind of that quality control person saying, Hey, be careful. Gary Stocker university doesn't look like it's financially healthy. And there are many, many ways that Mary, that I convey that message.

Mary McGrath (15:59.731)
And I know you said self -proclaim, but I just want to back you up and say I agree with that as well. I would call you that. But anyways, yes, cool. But anyways, with that, it'll be a wrap for myself and for Dr. Gary Stocker. Thank you for joining us today on the Beyond the College Brochure podcast, where we provide you guidance on college decisions, financials, and much more. If you have any questions or concerns about the financial health of any colleges.

Gary (16:06.717)
So dual, dual proclame, two person proclame now.

Mary McGrath (16:26.005)
please send them to marym at collegeviability .com. Thank you again for making time to join us today and we hope to see you next time.